We welcome all comments, critical and otherwise. However, personal insults and ad hominem attacks will be–and, in the case of this item, have been–deleted. (If you cannot offer a comment unaccompanied by insult, chances are you have nothing worthwhile to say anyway.)

That’s something you can count on! And I appreciate the spirited discussion with you.

We may have to agree to disagree. I see a 5 figure tax bill get worse on one hand & stagnant wages plus my own retirement issues on the other. I’m pretty much done with NY. We have Schumer, Clinton, Rev Al, Bloomberg, McCarthy and more. Enough idiots for 5 states, yet they’re all HERE. Yup, taxes of that magnitude do indeed make me bitter and angry. Why do so many other states do so much more with less? Were my tax bill only 3K you wouldn’t hear me complain all that much, provided it rose at or less than the rate of my pay. I m not as ready to blame companies, who ultimately provide employment. You ask me “if you agree with a business that has $900k a year in revenue that whines paying $500 in tax a year is too much”. Hard to say. 900k revenue and what is the net profit? No company I know of pays so little tax. We’re always getting creamed.

We both feel the facts support our positions. I see the direct and proximate effects of salaries & pensions in my local taxes, yet see my neighbors let go, housing values dropping and taxes ever rising. The only people making out OK are the teachers and cops, it seems. I don’t begrudge them a good living. Hell, I support it. But, I cannot support annual tax hikes at 2-4X inflation. Simply not sustainable.

Maybe the market will turn around & maybe it won’t. I still invest as much as I can and hope for the best. I wish I too had a pension, but they are dead in the private sector. Most companies can’t afford them. As for organizing? No quicker ticket to unemployment via dead companies. Union companies just can’t compete any more. Too expensive & too restrictive. Were we to rein in pension costs I doubt we’d see an exodus to the private sector. If the private sector were all that better they’d all ready be there. It is not. Perhaps 20-30 years ago you’d have been right, but not anymore. Today’s kids will face a far harder challenge than we did. I’ll bet theirs is among the first generation in recent memory that will not do as well as their parents.

Either way, perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. I’ll see you out there on the front lines protesting ever higher taxes and NY’s nanny state mentality.

You say:

“I don’t think you should pay more for the pension plan, but I think you should recognize the value of it, and recognize that the increases you are concerned about wouldn’t have to happen if your elected officials managed money appropriately. Remember, my taxes will go up because of this as well, so I am in the exact same boat as you here.”

To which I respond:

There is NO value in it for me except higher taxes. Have you seen the reports detailing that by 2105 or so non police contributions could rise to 30% of payroll, while police could go as high as 40%? How is this in ANY way affordable? It isn’t. If YOU want YOUR pension then YOU can pester YOUR elected officials. Don’t count on my tax money. You union people have done a fine job with the legislators anyway. You’ve all but bought & paid for them. 74% of NY’ers wanted a school tax cap, but the UNIONS put a stop to it.

Next, you say:

“As far as taxes, personal income taxes need to be lowered, and corporate taxes need to be significantly raised as I already illustrated above. School taxes are atrocious. While many blame the salaries of teachers, have you every actually looked at what they make? Around what, $35k to start? Sure, they make much more when they retire, but it’s no golden goose. The real issue is unfunded mandates from Albany, having to teach for two separate diplomas (Regents and non-Regents), and districts, like my own childs school that feels they need a 42 inch LCD TV in every classroom.” I least YOU get something from your taxes. I get next to nothing.

Well, at least we agree personal tax rates must be lowered. But, like a typical liberal/union person you immediately demonize corporations. Keep doing that & even MORE jobs will flee NY. I am no lover of big corps, but they do tend to leave oppressive, anti business climates like NY for elsewhere. Hint: Its happening now. As for teachers’ salaries, I don’t know where you’re from, but most in my area earn way more than that. The average for a 4/5 year is a good 70-80K, which extrapolates to a 5/5 year of around 90-100K WITHOUT the big benefits & pensions. Sorry, but gym, library, and shop teachers aren’t worth that much. I damned good math prof? Absolutely. I do agree on the unfunded mandates issue. I’d refuse to pay & give the state a big “Up yours-you want it? You pay for it”. You want some evidence of what a teacher earns in NY? See here: http://www.myshortpencil.com/teachersalaries. As for the union vs. the rest of us? See this 5 year old Time article (its even worse now): http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1122010,00.html

Or here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensation_N.htm

The following cracked me up & cemented my impression of you as a real union guy:

“Because the misconception that they are under-worked and overpaid is too prevalent. It’s easy to point the finger and say “You get this, why should you? I don’t”. It’s harder to go to your own employer and demand the same things for yourself instead……..As an employee, don’t YOU feel your employer should pay you what you are worth and give you decent benefits? No one would ever answer that question in the negative unless they are lying. So how does that make civil servants any different from YOU?……. that doesn’t even consider other fringe benefits those in private may get from their employers that civil servants never will, like performance bonuses, paid retreats, or even an office holiday party paid for by the employer.”

LOL! Were it only so easy to waltz into an employer & demand a gold plated pension, superior job security and the like. Seriously, have you ever worked in the real world? We can’t even fire bad teachers, nor can they be sued for malpractice. Some “professionals”, huh? Only in the rarified union world do people the private sector is awash in bonuses and paid retreats. The only “paid retreats” I am aware of are those in my local school budget! Bonuses? LOL! Maybe on Wall Street, but not on Main Street. Put down the union propaganda. As for how civil servants differ from the rest of us? Easy. They are MUCH harder to fire, tend to get salary hikes even in off years, have gold plated pensions, can retire a decade or 2 before the rest of us and more.

Look, I agree that NYS is a rathole of corruption, favoritism, cronyism and worse. But, that doesn’t mean I should have to pay even MORE taxes so you can retire in comfort. Me, and many like me, are standing up and saying NO! If this means payrolls & people get cut and worse then so be it. YOU can take on the legislators YOU sponsored/endorsed & bought. Leave my money alone. Like I’ve said before: Your pension, your problem. If the benefits are too generous, the state mismanaged it or stock market crashed that is not my problem. You gonna make up MY 401k losses?

No, I haven’t gone through the state budget line by line. If I did I’d cut welfare, entitlement programs for those who don’t even try and subsidies for corps not doing their share. I’d also hack away at the unfunded mandates. Unfortunately, I have no control over all that mess–but I can vote down budgets and press for no more taxes. I’ll leave it to you to fight for your largesse. And yes, I have looked at the school budget and note that the vast majority of the expenses are salary, benefits & pension costs. Something like 70% or more, so that’s a real good place to start cutting. A nearly 100% tax hike in the last 10-11 years is oppressive, especially since the primary cause is pensions, pay & benefits. Since private salaries for those that still have jobs & haven’t seen pay cuts have risen what, 25% in the same time I do indeed blame union greed and unwillingness to live the life those who pay them do.

I was serious about people leaving NY in droves. I hope to be one of them someday.

While you are at it, why don’t you compare a doctors salary and benefits with someone who works behind the counter at McDonalds.

Clueless indeed.

“Union excesses” is a crock of…. Do a salary by salary comparison of a civil service job with the private industry counterpart. Even NOW, in this economy, those in private have much higher salaries. The tools are available online for you do do this. You just choose not too because your emotions tell you that civil servants MUST be overpaid, when the fact is, they make less. Do you really think an attorney working for the state full time makes the same as an attorney in private practice? How about a doctor or a nurse? How about a computer programmer? Need I really go on here? If you truly think civil servants in those jobs (and many others) make similar salaries to their private industry counterparts do you are sadly mistaken, and you could easily look that up using information on the Civil Service website and a tool like Salary.com.

That doesn’t even consider other fringe benefits those in private may get from their employers that civil servants never will, like performance bonuses, paid retreats, or even an office holiday party paid for by the employer.

If you really want to lower or eliminate the pension benefits, then you had better be prepared to start paying people comparable salaries.

This isn’t an “entitlement mentality”. This is appropriate compensation. You don’t care to acknowledge the fact that public servants ACCEPT being paid less than their private industry counterparts because of the fact that they get a pension.

As far as your questions:

I don’t think you should pay more for the pension plan, but I think you should recognize the value of it, and recognize that the increases you are concerned about wouldn’t have to happen if your elected officials managed money appropriately. Remember, my taxes will go up because of this as well, so I am in the exact same boat as you here.

I’ve already answered this one, but again, pensions are what attracts people to public service when they see that their overall earning power will be less than what it would be in private industry. Put a kid fresh out of college out in the job market looking for his first computer programming job, and offer him $39k to work for the state or $70k to work in private. What job do you think he is going to choose if you take away that pension and the ability to retire at 55?

As far as taxes, personal income taxes need to be lowered, and corporate taxes need to be significantly raised as I already illustrated above. School taxes are atrocious. While many blame the salaries of teachers, have you every actually looked at what they make? Around what, $35k to start? Sure, they make much more when they retire, but it’s no golden goose. The real issue is unfunded mandates from Albany, having to teach for two separate diplomas (Regents and non-Regents), and districts, like my own childs school that feels they need a 42 inch LCD TV in every classroom.

You last question is not worth me typing any response other than to say why bother answering it.

Quite simply, you are having the same knee-jerk reaction that every other middle class person is having. CUT! CUT! CUT! Without bothering to look into what really makes sense and what doesn’t. Have you really ever bothered to look at just what the total amount your locality has to pay for pensions each year is? Have you compared this with the total amount of the localities budget? Have you scrutinized the budget to see what useless things your local politicians are spending money on?

Now do the same for the state itself. Last I heard, we are still paying a multi-million dollar a year lease on office space that was in the World Trade Center that no longer exists. Which is more wasteful? Giving employees decent benefits, or paying some uber rich real estate developer money for a lease on a building that no longer exists?

Finally, ask yourself this. As an employee, don’t YOU feel your employer should pay you what you are worth and give you decent benefits? No one would ever answer that question in the negative unless they are lying. So how does that make civil servants any different from YOU?

Some people are SO clueless, that they do not realize that they such. Clearly you fall in this category.

You’re obviously a union fanatic as evidenced by this “GM’s collapse was caused by an inept management”. No doubt such played a part, but union excesses are up there as well. Your refusal to acknowledge this speaks volumes. Unions are less the saviour of working people than parasites, intent on killing their host, i.e. people like ME. I decline to be a victim and am fighting back. The unions have long feared this & are now scared. Good. And, no, we don’t need all that OT. People need to be a little less reliant on Gov’t for everything. Me? I look out for my own & would only ask for help in the most dire of circumstances. I don’t want a cop on every road & don’t expect Gov’t to be my de facto nanny.

Why do you call me a “right wing nut”? Do you know ANYTHING about me or my politics? I am fiscally conservative, but socially quite middle of the road. I have no problem with civil servants getting a fair deal, but when they alone escape the economic wave hitting the rest of us & alone have better pay, pensions benefits than those paying them then you’re damned right I say “NO!!”. Dammit, I am not going to pay anymore so YOU can retire in FL while I work till I am 70. If this means I won’t be able to hire more civil servants then, again, I say GOOD! If you people were run like a real business you’d all be in chapter 7 by now.

And, no, I decline to get into the differences among the teachers’, fire, police & civil pensions. ALL are too high and ALL are cranking up my taxes. Don’t care anymore. I am paying too much & getting too little in return. If neither I nor the rest of us taxpayers have such then I decline to pay for you to have it.

We have “clue 1″ as you call it. You just don’t like it that we do.

So, here are my questions:

Do you think I should pay more in taxes to support your pension plan, even if I am already paying among the highest taxes in the US? If so, why?

What do you think should be done about the pension mess? Why should public employees get pensions the rest of us nothing?

What should we do about taxes?

Will you, as the last one here in NY, turn out the lights when the rest of us leave?